Wisdom Rising

Let's Talk Tantra: A Practice Of Self‑Love, Energy, And Sacred Partnership

• Christine Renee, Isabel Wells, and Shantel Ochoa • Season 4 • Episode 5

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What if spiritual practice didn’t pull you out of your body—but brought you deeper into it? After a month of eclipses, team changes, and heartfelt goodbyes, Christine turned to Tantra not as dogma, but as a grounded, embodied way to meet life. With guest (and her beloved) Jim Macdonald, they unpack what Tantra means to them: a practice of self-love that integrates sexual energy with spirit through the simple, potent tools of breath, movement, and sound.

We start by clearing the fog around Tantra. Forget the hype and the rigid scripts—this approach welcomes solo practitioners and couples alike. Jim shares the SkyDancing Institute's lineage of neo-tantra, where the focus is raising energy from root to crown for expanded awareness and everyday ecstasy. Christine bridges Tantra with her Shamanic Reiki background, showing how energy work becomes more alive when you let the body move, the breath deepen, and the voice open. 

In today's episode, we'll cover: 

  • Reframing spiritual practice as embodiment, not escape
  • Demystifying and de-hyping Tantra
  • 3 Keys of Tantra: breath, movement, and sound
  • Accessibility for solo practitioners and couples
  • Christine’s fusion of Tantra with Shamanic Reiki
  • Mythic archetypes: Shiva/Shakti, Isis/Osiris
  • Inner union of steadiness and fluidity
  • Emphasis on safety, consent, and boundaries
  • Letting go of goals to reduce performance pressure
  • Sacred communication for healing intimacy

Ready to explore further? Join our free webinar on Sacred Space and The 3 Keys to Creating a Sacred Sex Life, then continue with our five‑week masterclass, Intro to Tantra: Awakening Aliveness through the Tantric Arts of Breath, Movement, and Sound. 

Subscribe, share with a friend who needs this reframe, and leave a review to help more listeners find their way to embodied wisdom.

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Wednesday, Oct 22nd at 6pm PT/ 7pm MT/ 9pm ET - Free Online Webinar: Sacred Space & the 3 Keys to Creating a Sacred Sex Life - Register Here! 

Wednesdays beginning Nov 5th through Dec 10th at 4pm PT/ 5pm MT/ 7pm ET - 5 Week Intro to Tantra Masterclass - Learn More & Register Here! 

Moon Rising Shamanic Institute Links:
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Subscribe to the Newsletter: https://moonrisinginstitute.kit.com/spiritguide

Book a session with Christine: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/90-minutes-intensive

Book a FREE 10 minute connect call with Christine: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/10-minute-connect-call-srpt

SPEAKER_00:

It's time to remember your divine purpose and limitless potential. Welcome to Wisdom Rising, the official podcast of Moon Rising Shamanic Institute. Join shamanic Reiki practitioners Christine Renee, Isabel Wells, and Chantel Ochoa as we guide you on a journey of radical self-discovery and spiritual guidance. Each week, we'll dance through the realms of shamanism, mysticism, energy healing, and personal development to illuminate your path to true healing and self-sourced wisdom. Through weekly inspired conversations and interviews with leading spiritual and shamanic practitioners, we are here to help you acknowledge, reconcile, and balance your energy so that you can awaken to the whispers of wisdom rising from within.

SPEAKER_01:

While I typically don't emphasize astrological events to the degree that Chantel does, their impact was undeniable, affecting not only my personal life and moon rising, but also many of our clients and students. Let me provide a timeline. The full moon lunar eclipse on September 7th initiated energies of emotional clarity, revelation, and trust. During this time, we were actively launching Soul Rising, striving for success. However, enrollment numbers were lower than anticipated, necessitating adjustments in many areas of the business as a new moon solar eclipse and equinox arrived on September 21st. Our team then underwent a transition, realigning with new callings and passions, which brought forth emotions, including grief. This upheaval wasn't limited to moon rising. It felt like every area of my life was shaken, with the sole exception of my stable relationship with my partner. We recorded this podcast episode on September 30th. Subsequently, on October 3rd, I wrote a blog post titled Free Falling into Love, detailing this personal tower moment, which is now available on our moonrisinginstitute.com website and linked in the show notes. The podcast recording needed to happen when it did because Jim McDonald, our guest for today's episode, has been traveling for his Tantra teacher training with the Sky Dancing Institute throughout most of October. Knowing the episode wouldn't be published for a few weeks, I did my best to remain present as we discussed the meaning of Tantra for us. Jim is quite a flirt. So for those who'd like to see me flustered while trying to stay on topic, I recommend watching the YouTube version. On October 10th, the 1010 portal, representing trust in a higher purpose and positive unfolding of events, I experienced a noticeable shift in energy towards a state of flow. This past Monday, October 13th, we had a heartfelt ceremonies and said our goodbyes to Isabel, bringing a sense of completion. Today's episode introduces Tantra, and I can confidently say that it has helped me navigate the emotional fluctuations of the past month. I'm excited to share what Tantra means to me and to my beloved Jim and us as a couple. This serves as an introduction to Tantra before our free live webinar this Wednesday on October 22nd on sacred space and the three keys to creating a sacred sex life, which is will not be covered in this episode. The webinar will be available on the podcast prior to our five-week online masterclass, Intro to Tantra Awakening Aliveness through the tantric arts of breath, movement, and sound. For more details, please refer to the link in the show notes. And with that, let's dive in. Please welcome our wisdom rising guest and the love of my life, Jim McDonald, to the show. Welcome back to another episode of Wisdom Rising. Today we have on a special guest. My beloved is with me, Jim McDonald, who we are um coming together to talk about Tantra because it's one of our favorite things to practice together and share with the world through workshops and hopefully a masterclass soon. And so I'm really excited to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm really excited to be here too. It's not my first time on your podcast, though.

SPEAKER_01:

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02:

Like if you all the first time as a couple that I've been on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yeah. Uh you were on about a year and a half ago, and we talked about facilitation, particularly for chakra dance, which is something you're licensed and facilitating. And I really do enjoy whenever you put those on. Like that was that was great. Good times.

SPEAKER_02:

Good times, but we're not doing that tonight.

SPEAKER_01:

We're not doing that tonight. What are we doing?

SPEAKER_02:

We're not doing any chakra dance tonight. But we might have chakras.

SPEAKER_01:

We might talk about chakras. That will that might uh touch on that. So yeah, I'm really excited for the conversation because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding out in the world about what Tantra is. And you know, I feel like I'm still a novice compared to how much you've studied over the years, but I still So I'm supposed to come here and be the full understanding of Tantra and impart my wisdom to your podcast listeners that they have the true no, I not that intention. I literally loved it. Like I kind of went through podcasts today on what other people have podcasts on on this topic. And I was like, wow, it's like either gurus telling them they have all of this wisdom and or information, or there's just like not a lot of I don't know, diversity or something I really resonated. It felt like there's these experts that were just trying to convince people of something. So I'm I was like, I wanted to come on and do something different, like have it be more conversational, more real life, more yeah, like learn like what is this actually all about and how can it be practiced, but make it something that is a little bit more fun than a dry conversation of and a lesson of what tantra is.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so I'll tell you about Tantra and I won't be a guru.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02:

So you probably want me to talk about it, what it starts with, but I'd be really curious when I say the word tantra, what is evoked for you, or maybe what was evoked for you before you ever started studying it?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I I think this might sound silly, but I think I first got introduced to Tantra. It was always something that was kind of in the background of something I would I knew I wanted to study or be interested in. And I thought it had to be a couple thing. And I think that was my first understanding was like I would see pictures on tantra treats, and it sees two people gazing into each other's eyes and doing Lati Han and all of these, this, this, these intimacy practices, but it was very much the Facebook advertisement version of what Tantra was. And I was just like, whatever that, whatever they're doing, I I want that in my relationship, right? And um, I ended up really being first introduced to Tantra at an all-women's retreat, which kind of blew that image out of the water that it had to be a couple thing. Yeah, it was just peeling back misconceptions every ever since, and also recognizing that there's not one true answer that everyone's gonna agree upon. Like I think that's something I also have discovered that it's like you can look at what tantra is from all these different angles, and like it's like looking through a prism, and which angle are we looking at it? And are two people looking at the same way, but someone else could perceive it a completely different way. And I think that's what makes it so dynamic. And I don't think there's necessarily the right way or wrong way, it's just multi-faceted spiritual practice.

SPEAKER_02:

So there's a lot possibly to Tantra, but when you first it was about couples, was it about sex?

SPEAKER_01:

Not necessarily. I think it was more about intimacy.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that's intimacy between couples.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's what I originally gravitated towards. And I think I had come from relationships that didn't have availability for vulnerability or to be fully who you are or to be vulnerable, whether that's in communication or in sexual practices, right? And so I think there was a yearning for whatever that is, I want to explore that. But I was never in a relationship that had a partner that would be willing to go there till now till now. Now it's been amazing. So um, yeah, I feel like our first real encounters really were tantric in its in their nature, right? And so I was like, oh when we're doing that podcast about chakra things, I was no, I meant as as a couple, as a couple, like I feel like we've always had that footing or foundation of being real. I think that was one of the things that I was like, you could draw me into a vulnerable space state within a matter of a few moments. And I was like, he can have real conversations, he can actually hold like hold not only hold space, but like also be vulnerable with me. And that was even before we were dating, you know. Pretty curious how I can yeah, I do because it because it was a long, I know it was a a long while ago.

SPEAKER_02:

It was, it was yeah, I was first started to be interested probably about 12 years ago. And I like you, I had the conception that tantra was for couples, but I wasn't interested in it until I was in a really dark place in my life, and I was trying to come out of it and trying to find love for myself, and I was starting to do practices that try to that were encouraging that. And a very dear person suggested maybe I'd be interested in studying tantra. And for once that resonated, and I don't know why it resonated, but for once it resonated, and I thought to myself, okay, I'm gonna study tantra, but I'm not gonna do it as a couple, I'm gonna do it as a gift to myself.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that.

SPEAKER_02:

And little did I know that the the woman I started studying who wrote a book called The Art of Sexual Ecstasy, a woman named Margot Anand, that that that was the premise of her book, that the tantra starts with self-love, loving of yourself. And if you recognize that you are a complete person, then you're ready for reclaiming your nature, which is bliss. But I didn't know any of that. So I first went thinking I was being quite the rebel by going as a solo and uh deciding I am not here to hook up, meet anybody. I did have the sexual sense that I had a sexual overtone to it, and I am just going to be here as an act of love for myself, and then by accident, I ended up there for all the right reasons.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. I think that's that's where I'm like, well, the divine conspired with you, orchestrated things to put those breadcrumbs in front of you to lead you right where you needed to be.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But I don't think we really get gotten much of a sense of what tantra means or means to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I think there's a lot of different meanings. When someone comes to me and says, one of you came to me and said, What is tantra? I would, or I practice tantra, I would have no idea what they were talking about, even though I study tantra.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. And I think that's part of, I don't know if it's necessarily a problem, but it's definitely like there isn't one set definition. And there's so much diversity and and variety, and um it can get kind of confusing.

SPEAKER_02:

So why don't we do a little thing where I sort of go over what I think tantra is, and you go over then what you studied? Because I know we've studied slightly different things, and then how we're coming together to practice it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I like it. Let's do that.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. So tantra, uh, the tantra I study is considered a branch of what's called neo-tantra, tantra that's really hasn't existed since the 19th century, it's only existed since the 1970s.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And like I said, it comes from the teachings of a woman named Margot Anand who wrote the art of sexual ecstasy in 1989. But of course, tantra roots in India and Nepal, way back in from the 8th to the 11th centuries AD. But so there are people who practice what they call traditional tantra. And I would argue there might not really be such a coherent thing as traditional tantra. Others would disagree. There's a whole online group you can go to. There are books, many books written about traditional tantra.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But the word tantra comes from a Sanskrit word that means to weave, and it sounds really spiritual and religious, but really what they meant was that it was written, there were things that were written down. And then in the 19th century, English scholars in India, British scholars, found these texts and they called them tantras because they were written down, and they seem to have some things in common. And among them, a very tiny fraction of those texts talked about sexuality, and others talked about other things that were more rebellious, eating meat, or trying different practices to get enlightenment because people were not in the Brahmin class, the Brahmin class was the highest class, and those were the people who were the only ones thought to be able to reach enlightenment, and there were people who are resisting that. So a lot of these tantra attacks are people trying to find other practices to come into that enlightenment, but they're not necessarily coherent, there's not like a religious point of view to them. You know, there's a lot of you need a guru for this, you need to do this practice here, this practice there. Another one might say something completely different. Um so, and then there wasn't really a practice, it just kept going, right? There wasn't some people calling themselves, we practice tantra since the 800s, because that the word didn't it really exist to describe it until the 19th century. So people practicing tantra are really the traditional tantra, are those who are practicing what they take from the traditions that come out of reading those old texts.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And typically finding like their own guru and some lineage, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Correct. And that and in the past that tended to be still male-centered.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

There is a story of a Buddha, you know, named uh Padma Sambava, who took a uh consort named Yeshit Soigal, and and uh he with her, it said that through their sexual union she danced in the sky, and that really impressed um Margot Anand. And so she called her lineage sky dancing, and that's the lineage I follow, but it's still a newer practice, yeah. And that newer practice is is is a fusion of Western Jungian psychology, other Western practices, other eastern practices, and also just Margot's generally own experience of what she felt found worked.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so through experiment and experiment and experiment, she found a method that helped raise our energy up from the earth up through our crown, bringing our sexual energy up into a spiritual place and a blissful place. So she called, she said that our nature is bliss, that if we do these practices, we can be ecstatic pretty much most of the time. Uh, and once you're ecstatic and in that place, you can even manifest things and do magic. And so I come from a lineage that is about integrating sexual energy with our spirit spirit, you know, the entire chakra system and moving that energy always from the ground up so that we can then connect outward, but then still come back to the ground. So it's a body spirit practice.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I'm I'm kind of giggling over here is because so everyone who's listening to this probably knows that I've been doing Reiki forever. And I was always kind of a rebel and did things out of the box. Reiki? Yes, I do Reiki for like a long time, right? So, but one of the things that like one of the first things I broke the rules on was you're supposed to work, do Reiki head down. And I was like, no, no, no, it needs to be root up, and we're gonna use the chakras and we're gonna move the energy from the root up. And so even when I would be teaching Reiki, I would teach them like, this is the way you're quote unquote supposed to do it. This is what I find works better for a lot of people. And I um I find that that you can energy is energy, is energy. It doesn't matter if it's Reiki energy or sexual energy or earth energy or divine energy, like it's all energy. And I think for me, the tantra practice is really about recognizing that energy within us and all around us and how do we move it. And I I think for me, it's like I've I already knew how to move energy within me from my Ricky background, which made just this lens of this practice even more expressive or more easy easy to like, oh, I I know how to do this. Like, and it's been really um fun to bring it into more of a movement. You know, I think that there's been some of the practices that that I've been introduced through with Tantra, that I've been like, oh, I've done this practice for years, but now I'm doing it with movement. Now I'm doing it with sound, now I'm doing it with breath. That was different than just my traditional, very uh, I don't know, it feels very it feels very masculine to like hold your body still, and we're gonna like bring energy from above in, you know, it's just and then we're like flip it on its head, it feels much more feminine and flowing and moving and sounding, and that can be a little bit more uh and I don't know, intuitive and wild. And I I think that's what I love about around Tantra, but that doesn't necessarily explain.

SPEAKER_02:

So I want to ask you a question, and I know we're we want to get to what what tantra is for you and what your definition is, but but I but what I heard you say was uh traditionally Reiki is a very masculine energy. If anything, it's bringing the spirit down into your body, right? It's like the spirit is the pureness that your body needs to contain it. And and uh as I understand it, you do shamanic Reiki, which is uh more wild and and feminine. So would you say shamanic Reiki in the sense it's like a tantric?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it can be. And I think the oftentimes we hear Reiki in and of itself being the energy is feminine, but we need this masculine practice to make us disciplined and hold still and have your hands in a certain way, and like all these the the rules feel very masculine in Reiki, right? But the energy itself, with all energy, you're gonna get both, right? I mean, I don't I would say I don't think tantra energy or Reiki energy is just masculine or feminine.

SPEAKER_02:

Like I just I don't think it has yeah, we wouldn't even call it tantric energy, right? Right sexual energy. Tantra is that union of of Shiva and Shakti that we have within us. So Shiva being traditionally the masculine energy, Shakti, the feminine, or let's not say energy, this masculine and the feminine. And energy is Shakti.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And Shiva is the can is the vessel, the container, the holder of the energy. And a lot of what we're doing in Tantra is is working with having both of those feel it, you know, in harmony within us, even as we're playing different roles with each other.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And so there's like love that lens. And right. And so some of what I've studied is that like you have these two internal snakes, and one is masculine, one is feminine, and there's two, and one's Ida and one's pingola, and they swirl through your chakras and come up to your third eye until they like open and you get envisionings, right? And I'm like, that's that's fun, that feels good, right? And how do you get them to awaken from with you within you, right? Like, and how do we move that energy? So I um I and I think that's where it's like, I don't know if there's necessarily a I don't think there needs to be a right or wrong as long as people are feeling it. Right. I think the more it feels more important to understand that we can have this ecstatic lifestyle or this tuning into our full selves and know that we have the capacity to be liberated in this way. That's what it feels like. Is that uh your energy, your connection, your it's your responsibility to be able to flow and move and cultivate that energy flow within you. And that's what feels really good.

SPEAKER_02:

It does. So, what is tantra to you and maybe a little of your journey?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Um, tantra to me feels like an embodied practice, and I think I've come to this and and very much of kind of what I explained earlier. Well, it's not that and it's not that, and it's not that. And that's how I kind of came to what it is for me, because I've been in the the very more of a Buddhist background with Reiki and going on these Japan pilgrimages and and learning how to meditate their way and how to do Zen meditation, how to do, how to do these practices to transcend. And it feels like you're leaving the body to experience enlightenment, experience Satory. And I just got to a point in my own practice of going, well, so what? We we chose to come here. Like my belief is that we chose to come here in this body to have these experiences. Why am I trying to escape it? So I've come to Tantra and the understanding that this is going to allow me to fully experience the fullness of life and to live ecstatically in that and really be able to utilize our physical body containers to feel the fullness of life and feel everything in a more heightened way. And that's not like I could see the my Buddhist counterparts going, well, that's going to increase suffering. And I'm like, it increases joy, it increases pleasure, it increases uh love, right? It increases this availability to really feel it all. And to me, that's really the essence of what tantra is for me, is like, if I can know how to tap into this energy flow, one, it it is very enlightening to where things are stuck in your body. Like I know that, and when I first started practicing, I could feel where the energy could move up to, and then get like you could reach something and go, oh, there's something there. And it was we were using the framework of the chakras, which I was very familiar with, and going, Oh, there's there's grief in my heart. And so now I can move that energy, and I'm gonna have this huge emotional uh experience to release that stagnant energy that was there that hadn't had a chance to move and be processed, right? Like it's not that I'm denying, not like I'm not shoving away and not looking at my grief. It's just you might not even be aware that your body is still holding on to it. So you're allowing your body to recognize where things are flowing with ease and where things are getting stuck.

SPEAKER_02:

Does that happen to you recently?

SPEAKER_01:

I feel like I blow through things really easily at this point. But yeah, I mean, I think that's so true. Like when there's big, heavy emotions and you are available for them, you get a fully, you get to fully express what how how they feel and what they need to move through in a really uh it feels like a really potent way, but it's it's like emotions get all swirled together. Like you can move from ecstatic bliss and grief and pain and whatever is showing up for you, and it's all available to just move. And I love that.

SPEAKER_02:

So tantra for you is an embodied practice that moves energy, gets through blocks, allows it, allows you to be integrated and connected.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And is there anything like I know you study a different tradition? And sure. Do you want to talk about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I totally can. I think that's where you know I you have to like from my tradition, it's like you have to enjoy mythology. You have to to be willing to create stories around the myths and really understand mythology because it oftentimes comes back to Egyptian stories of Isis and Osiris and their story, or Jesus and Mary Magdalene, or like these prototypes of the sacred union or the beloved, or you know, these relationships, recognizing that within each of us we have both these energies of feminine and masculine. And how are we cultivating that within? And then how do we match that with a partner who's also doing the work? And how in that union you can have bliss together, have more of an experience of oneness, not only with each other, but with a divine essence.

SPEAKER_02:

So would you say it's fairer? It's partially about relationship with yourself, partially about relationship with each other through those relationships, relationship with the divine.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's like different prototypes. So Egyptian, Middle Eastern sort of ones is where it rooted in, but they'd be open to Shiva and Shakti and Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? It's it's all about like really understanding the myths and what these stories were.

SPEAKER_02:

So this is probably different from what other people do with tantra. I know it is, right? Like there are some people for whom sexuality has almost nothing to do with tantra, or it's just a simply spiritual experience.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Right. And then there are other tantras that are about completely about learning sexual union and a lot less about how that connects to divinity, more about interpersonal connection.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's probably where we got the couples idea.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And then there are all kinds of tantras in between.

SPEAKER_01:

There's all kinds of tantras in between. And I think it's like working on yourself first, like really understanding and coming to a place of self-love is feels for me, it always feels like the first step, like really recognizing the energy within you and being able to willing to look at what's there, what's getting in the way. How are you cultivating your own flow and enjoyment with life? So it could just be go hoo hooping outside or floating the river or whatever it is, like whatever brings you joy. Like it's saying yes to that aspect of yourself that I think society oftentimes, because of the productivity has been pushed and programmed into us. How do we say yes to those basic pleasures of? Life enjoying the freaking piece of cake and not worrying about how many calories are in it, or whatever it may be, like just fully indulging in our senses. It's a sensory experience.

SPEAKER_02:

Sensory. So, in that sense, again, an embodied experience. So, I what I heard was a lot of agreement, really, right? That there's that there are these different aspects within us. Some of them are wild and energetic, some of them are maybe more containing and space-holding, you know, masculine and feminine for lack of a better word, but that all exists within us, whatever gender or gender binary or whatever we are, yep. All of that exists. An embodied experience of moving energy for fuller integration and ultimately for greater enjoyment of the life that we're living now, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. I'm not trying to escape anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

To be feel more alive. And if you happen to escape, like whatever.

SPEAKER_03:

If it's gonna be a moment of escape, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_02:

But that can't be the focus of your life because then that becomes um a stressful goal-oriented thing. The goal is the goal is to simply be right.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's it. Like I'm I I think um if we if we as a society could take out goals, like I get that we want to keep your goal. I don't know. I just feel like God, I mean, whether it is a couple coming, going to the bedroom with the goal of like, I have to have an orgasm, or it's I'm going to work and I need to make I need to hit this sales quota, or you know, like there's this always this push. And what if we found the flow with divine? What if we found the the divine within us and found our own internal flow? What what if what if it was about alignment? Like, how are things lining up for me? Like, I think it's like the way you came to tantric a goal, right?

SPEAKER_02:

In a sense that, but it's a shifting of the goal. Instead of that goal being something outside of us, I want to be rich, I want to have I want to have amazing orgasms, I want to have um the whatever it is, right? If the goal simply is I want to be true to my nature, I want to be connected.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think that's it.

SPEAKER_02:

That's connected, then all the other stuff becomes irrelevant.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Well, and I think that's how we were born to be. We are born to be connected, we are born to be alive in the fullness of who we are. We were born to utilize our senses and not deny them, right? Like if I'm like to use I didn't like that, I like to use our senses. It's good, all very yummy, right?

SPEAKER_02:

We're animals after all, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, not just animals, but not yeah, and I think that's it.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, where that and it's like where is the the and so how do we how do we move this energy? I think if tantra is about moving it, does tantra just say, yeah, it's just about moving it? Are there like any tools or oh yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

And so I know and leading question.

SPEAKER_02:

I think of yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I know what I think about uh well, and I know from the Sky Dancing Institute, like it's very clear that that you have these three keys to this tantric.

SPEAKER_02:

Three keys, three keys.

SPEAKER_01:

How many did I say?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, you're right.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, three.

SPEAKER_02:

You got it right. I got it gonna like it. Three keys, three keys. It's three excellent enthusiastic.

SPEAKER_01:

These are good ones.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm using my one of them, using one of the keys, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Sound, sound sound is a really prominent one, and that that's one people struggle with exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm not always in the bedroom, sometimes, sometimes not, but in general, that's one I think people are struggling with, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, and well, and just recognizing how am I speaking my truth? Am I talking up? Do I am I suppressing who I am? Like so much of your voice is reflective of your solar plexus and like being able to really accept this is who I am, this is what I sound like, this is the sound I want to make. How do I want to communicate my needs, desires, and wants? Like all of that is showing up because you it's the expressions of desires, diaphragm, huh?

SPEAKER_02:

And right in the solar plexus, right? But but it's I think not even just the metaphorical stuff, literally allowing your voice to go moves your body and moves hormones in your body, moves all kinds of stuff, and and and taps into it in a way that if you're restricting that voice, yeah, that you're not getting into.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So sound sound. What are the other two keys? So I think one that people probably are more into in spiritual communities is breath, right? Yeah. Breath work.

SPEAKER_01:

Everyone's doing everyone's really into breath jokes, like activate the DMT in your lungs. You're gonna have these amazing psychedelic natural experiences. And I'm like, yeah, it's true. It's true, it's true. It's true, absolutely, and and I think I think it's so popular right now for a reason. I think people are looking for a way to have these, I don't know, big experiences, psychedelic experiences, these like powerful embodied experiences that they know that they can tap into without taking a substance.

SPEAKER_02:

So, how many people do you think are connecting their breath to their sexual core and using that to move their energy?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think they are.

SPEAKER_02:

Like well, they probably are, right? But are they aware that that's the process that there is a process? I think that's it.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So, like when we go into uh like a Win-hof breathing, like, yeah, you're activating those lungs, you're breathing in a way to really kick in a very quick breath. But if we knew where we were pulling energy from, up from the earth and moving it into the body, like I'm like you're bringing it up and through, then you're you really are going to enhance the process. And I think that's where that energetic awareness comes in. Like you can do breath work and have really phenomenal experiences with breath work or just allowing your internal voice to quiet down because you're focusing on the breath. Like all of those things are really positive.

SPEAKER_02:

But if we knew that we could also bring in this other element of breath work to enhance uh our sexual ecstasy, I I would say um it's even more important and in the modern context, because for how many hundreds, maybe thousands of years has our sexuality been repressed, especially for women, right? But even for men, because I don't think men are having anything near the kind of sexual ecstasy that they could be having, because the way men and men have sort of enforced away of having sex has not been um healthy or good, certainly not for women who are being abused and barely we barely understand female anatomy, right? And it's the 21st century sexual anatomy. Um, but men also because of repression around fears of homosexuality, fears of of letting feminine energy into their into their being.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they've got to be a man and do it this way and dominate.

SPEAKER_02:

So because that's been so repressed, right? It's been procreative or nothing, um, or it has been just for the man's pleasure, and I would argue only for a very limited kind of pleasure.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

We're that's the part of us that's been treated as sort of either naughty or or so different that we we ignore it, right? So it almost needs, to me, in the modern context, extra attention to bring that in. So if all the chakras are equal, but they're not all equally out of balance, some are more out of balance than others. So whether you consider that in your sacral as um most people do, or in the root, as in the sky dancing tradition, it really doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Wherever that is for you, that's probably out of balance.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I would say that's for most people. Like, I think that's why for in my school at Moonrising and Shamanic Institute, we so put an emphasis on the lower three chakras. And this one, so when I came to Tantra, I was like, oh, this just fits right into my beliefs and values already.

SPEAKER_02:

So breath work, breath moving that, moving that, combining with sound even better.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Right. We can really get into when on that exhale, what sound wants to come out and and allowing it to. Like I think so much of it is this surrendering into allowing the body to sound and breathe and then move the way it desires to.

SPEAKER_02:

Would you say going back to sound that there's a resistance a bit to sound, and we can talk about it more, but it resists to sound not just because we're making it, but because we live in such a loud society that people are seeking a lot of quiet. Like they want that still meditation, that peaceful place. Like one of the biggest things I've heard in workshops complaints is they can't deal with how much noise is happening. Like the noise is interrupting their internal process that someone else is making.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

Like maybe for a different podcast, but yeah, I'm like, I'm like, that's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01:

And I I mean, I've been, I mean, at the retreat that I was at with all women, we were not doing any stimulative touch. We were in our own breathwork practice, we were all encouraged to move and make sound on our own mats, and we were all having, you know, orgasms and sounds and all these things. And I don't think any of us were complaining.

SPEAKER_02:

But I so what if what if a man were in that room having very orgasmic sounds in a room of women?

SPEAKER_01:

See, and I think I don't know if maybe is that the dynamic? I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm just wondering because I I know as a man I'm often feeling like in for good reason that there's a level of suspicion on me as a man, as a spiritual practitioner, right, because of the obvious abuses that a lot of men have had on women, and also just men in other in the lives of many women. So you come in and I come in extra aware that that there might be something, you know, scary and dangerous about me as a man, especially if I'm making loud noises.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. See, and I have been in that situation yet. And I and I think there's a good point. I think we've had a lot of conversations where it's like, well, I don't know if I'd be comfortable doing this practice if there were men around, right? Like I think there's a lot of coming to finding that place of what's my yeses and what's my no's, and what am I comfortable with and what I'm not, and where are those growth edges that I'm willing to explore, and where am I just downright like that's a boundary. And I think that's one of the reasons why I have so appreciated the Sky Dancing Institute's ethics, right? Because it really does honor those things and are in in a really great way. Like that's what I keep coming back to. I'm like, I ever all the stories I hear from your retreats, your trainings, all the things that you've participated in, is like that's a really foundational honored.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that's really needed so that if women are in this co-gendered or multigendered space, your one, your voice is heard and respected, and and you can find where you're still comfortable.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I would agree. I would I obviously I'm biased as a sky dancing participant, but one of the things that draws me into it are the ethical standards of the group and uh sky dancing tantra USA. Just look it up on Google, sky dancing tantra.org or dot com. I don't remember. But um, but but among those things is one, a clear idea of consent, clear idea of boundaries, prospective boundaries, and yeah, uh and just general, you know, ethics around instructors not having relationships with students, right? You know, things like that, which are very dangerous in the uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I knew that I was like, okay, if I want to date you, if I want to be with you, I need to start right now because you've got all these stance for workshops.

SPEAKER_02:

You're taking a workshop with that, yeah, but not for six months.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I recognize that.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm glad you uh made yourself available in time. But but we've gone through two of the keys. There's one other key.

SPEAKER_01:

Movement. Movement, movement, and I think I I I think this goes to also what's really popular right now is that somatic therapy. You know, it's it's really recognizing that the body keeps the score, the body holds the trauma, the body is also this really amazing, beautiful thing that can move energy. So when you you combined freedom of movement, feeling liberated and moving your body however it wants to without judgment, and really a form of self-love to say, yeah, I can move this way. And it for any for whether you're dancing alone or you're with a partner, it doesn't really matter. It's like this having this uh acceptance that movement is going to be supportive to that energy flow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I I think movement's absolutely vital. Like if we want growth in our lives, then we have to be able to break patterns. If we're just thinking about it, yeah, we can think of, oh, I should do this, I should do that. But if we aren't actually making our body do those things, our body are a collection of habits, we have to break those habits. So making sounds you're not normally making, breathing in ways you're not normally breathing, and moving in ways you're not normally moving, aka dance. Yeah, but but we can also be moving through the breath work. We can just as we're sounding, we can allow a certain movement. Right. We can, but also just dancing. And then in dancing, we can invite breath in while we're dancing. We can invite sound in while we're dancing, right? So we can invite the other keys into other things that we're doing. But even just practicing one of those keys can be really powerful. Powerful towards rewiring yourself and allowing the channels to open up for integration.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I just, I mean, part of it's like I'm right now, yeah, I'm kind of totally in love with the practice and learning because it makes it makes a lot of sense with how our society's been repressed and movement sound. Right. And we're giving encouragement and to to do the things that feel good. And it's not like, I mean, there's some but they might feel uncomfortable. Right. I was gonna say, like some of like the traditional tantra, it's like hold this position and put your tongue on your roof of your mouth like this and squeeze your face or whatever it may be. And that might be still considered a tantric practice, but I think it's going back to a lot of that traditional was it was experimental and trying to figure out what worked. Like I think that when I think about traditional, I want to always remember these were a group of people that were trying to find different avenues of embodiment, of ecstasy, of connecting with the divine.

SPEAKER_02:

There's all kinds of practices that can work. And if it works for you, do it.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

What I like about my tradition is I feel like it's it's still a lot of work, but it's it's simplified. But it is meant to be somewhat uncomfortable, right? Right. How do we find so if it's aliveness we're wanting, I think I feel most alive when I'm also calm in that align of aliveness. How do I get to that calm space? Well, I've got to expand my comfort zone. I can't expand my comfort zone unless I'm doing things that are in some senses uncomfortable, right?

SPEAKER_01:

But then I think they get more uncomfortable over time, or you build trust with the person that you're doing these practices with.

SPEAKER_02:

Like our sex life?

SPEAKER_01:

Like our sex life. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it could be like one of your group frames, like, yeah, I don't want to get naked in front of people, and now it's like, yeah, now it's not a big deal. Right. And then, but there is that piece of like when you when you have conversations from the very start of what's your fears, desires, and boundaries? Let's talk about all these things on a regular basis, it makes it so much easier to go into a bedroom space of going, I'm really fully honored and being free in all of these three to these three keys, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And when you throw in some of the other practices we have around sacred communication, how to listen to each other, how to state our desires, our fears, and our boundaries. Again, giving up goal orientation, just being in the moment with the person, then bringing in breath, movement, and sound.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's uh so sweet and so yummy. Right. And the funny thing is, then all the weird performance stuff tends to actually go pretty well, also.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

But if it doesn't, it doesn't. It's not that important, but it usually does.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

In a way that it doesn't when you're all stressed out all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And I think there's, you know, I can speak for myself as a woman. It's like the more I can just fully be in my body and not in the like listening to the voice, the more I can do that and just really recognize and give myself the freedom to to move, to make sound, to, to breathe in a way that I know is going to encourage the energy flow. Like then it can just be this beautiful multi-orgasmic, yummy experience. And sometimes, yeah, it's still gonna bring up emotions that can be really, really uh expressive and knowing that I'm with you where it's safe to do that. Right. And so I feel like I can truly be all of me and all the expressions of me because we have that foundation.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I do credit a lot of my training and self-work for preparing me for a relationship with you, which has been delicious. I know that we want to talk about what's how we're gonna bring some of these practices to the community and the online community and so forth.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. So this Wednesday, October 22nd at 7 to 8 p.m. Mountain Time, that's 6 Pacific or 9 p.m. Eastern, we're gonna have a free online webinar on sacred space and the three keys to creating a sacred sex life. So we're gonna be going through those three foundational keys of tantra, breath, movement, and sound on a much deeper level and understanding how to create that sacred space as a container for intimacy, healing, and erotic awakening. So this is directed towards people who are solos or people who are partnered. Either way, this is gonna be a great way to come to understand this sacred practice and be really present and trust in this deep energetic connection with yourself and potentially a partner. And then we're gonna go into our five-week intro to Tantra Masterclass, Awakening Aliveness through the Tantric Arts of Breath, movement and sound, starting November 5th and with office hours on November 26th to avoid the week of travel for many folks during Thanksgiving. And then we'll have two more classes after that, ending on December 10th. And so they're gonna be on Wednesday nights. And I'm really excited. So, week one, we're gonna have training on the sacred communication and how to create a sacred bubble, do heart salutations. Uh, and I just feel like if you know the premise of that, oh my gosh, it works in every area. We just did one from Bozeman Co-housing of like creating sacred space and really being able to share from your heart and have these vulnerable, intimate moments with anyone.

SPEAKER_02:

So it doesn't matter if it's it doesn't have to do with sex at all, or it could be basically it's a communication tool that could be used in a more tantric context, or it could be used in less tantric context. Exactly. But it's a beautiful tool for communication.

SPEAKER_01:

And so then we're gonna move through the next three weeks, doing one key a night. So movement, breath, and sound. And then we're gonna do the another class on doing what is sacred sexuality and how do we enhance that experience. So these are gonna be two hour classes. So we'd love to have you join us. You're gonna find all of the masterclass information on my website at um moonrisinginstitute.com. And just go over to the events page and you're gonna find the links for all of these things over there, whether it's date night, whether it's the webinar, whether it's the master class.

SPEAKER_02:

Or just DM Kristen Renee. She will be happy to tell you.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm used to getting DMs all day long. So feel free to uh reach out to me.

SPEAKER_02:

And feel free to friend me. I'm I'm Jim McDonald, M A C D O N A L D on Facebook. And feel free to reach out to me. And if you have questions about Tantra or Chakra dance, if that interests you, feel free to ask me about that or uh, I guess anything else.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks so much for listening. And until next time, may you awaken to the whispers of wisdom rising from within. Take care, everyone.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for tuning in to today's show. The Wisdom Rising Podcast is sponsored by Moonrising Shamanic Institute. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcasting app and be the first to know when we release a new episode. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok at Moonrising Institute or visit our website, MoonrisingInstitute.com, to learn more about our mission and find future opportunities to connect with our community of shamanic mystics. Once again, thank you for sharing space with us today. And until next time, may you awaken to the whispers of wisdom rising from within.